ANDREW CLENNELL, HOST: Well, joining me live on the desk is Industry Minister Tim Ayres. How are you, Tim Ayres? Thanks for joining us. I won't start with that. I'm sure you'd like to start with that. I might start with the Prime Minister's visit to the White House later this month. I just revealed some of the letter from the President to the PM. Anything can happen at these meetings. Are you confident the PM will emerge unscathed?
SENATOR THE HON TIM AYRES, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND INNOVATION AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE: Well, this is an important meeting, but it sits against the backdrop of a steady and workmanlike approach to our relationship with the United States, which is a consequential relationship for Australia. They're our closest partner in military and strategic and defence terms. It's an important relationship, important in trade and investment terms as well. We're just going to press on with these discussions. The cordial relationship between the President and the Prime Minister. We'll work in the national interest like we always do.
CLENNELL: Could it be a situation where Australia comes to the table with something to announce which assists with how that meeting goes?
AYRES: Well, we will keep working carefully with our American partners on the issues of mutual interest in Australia's national interest. And the Americans will be pursuing their national interest and their broader strategic objectives, which, of course, we have a deep interest in.
CLENNELL: All the focus seems to be on offering the US an announcement on critical minerals. And Don Farrell spoke to me about this. It's no secret you're talking to the US about this in the context of this meeting. Can you explain to me and the viewers, though, what we can offer the us? Is it some exclusive access? What minerals in particular are important for them and to build what?
AYRES: Well, I'll give you a few examples. So, in South Australia, the lead production facility, the lead smelter at Port Pirie, has begun production of antimony, which is an important critical mineral, particularly in defence. That facility, if its production schedule goes as planned, will produce about 5,000 tonnes of antimony.
CLENNELL: What does that build?
AYRES: So, it's used in munitions. It's a hardening agent that’s added to steel and aluminium and other products to deliver the kind of capability that they need. Go much further beyond that, Andrew, and you start to exhaust the bounds of my technical knowledge of these things. But it is a critical function, or a critical part, of munitions production. 5,000 tonnes is equivalent to about 40% of the United States’ annual requirement. That one plant in South Australia, the smelter, that the Albanese government invested in just six weeks ago to secure its future. We have all of the critical minerals that our partners in the United States and Europe require.
CLENNELL. So, it's for defence equipment. Anything else?
AYRES: Yeah, they're vital for renewable technologies, vital in computer chips and communications technologies. Now, Australia has all of the minerals, but we also have the capacity to do the value add and process those minerals here in Australia. And that's the Australian advantage. We're an excellent place to invest and move up the value chain and secure production. So, not just the ore for our partners, but the metals and the metal products for our partners. That's the Australian opportunity.
CLENNELL. So, would we be saying the US you have priority over China in terms of accessing this stuff?
AYRES: Well, we're engaged in discussions with our partners in the United States. We're also engaged in discussions, Don Farrell, in discussions with the European Union, with our partners around the world. This is an enormous Australian asset for the future. That's what Future Made in Australia is all about. It’s about securing the Australian advantage for the future and making sure that we're engaged in production and manufacturing in these areas, not just in the mining processes themselves.
CLENNELL: Has China got too much of a hold on critical minerals?
AYRES: Well, it's absolutely, as you'll have seen from the beginning, as the Assistant Trade Minister in the last term, working for Don Farrell as the Trade Minister, we set out an agenda for Australia that was about diversification and that's about diversification with whom we trade. Both in import and export terms to secure more economic resilience, but also diversification in what we trade, moving Australia up the value chain. And that's why the industry portfolio for me is so important. This is about securing Australia's future. Economic resilience, good jobs, increases in productivity, but economic resilience too, in a world which is less secure and less certain.
CLENNELL: Is there something else in the defence space Australia might offer the US?
AYRES: Well, it is a deep relationship in defence terms. And we will continue exploring all of the opportunities for Australia, whether it's in the AUKUS arrangements, Pillar I and Pillar II, but in the broader defence relationship, directly and bilaterally with the United States.
CLENNELL: How big is this defence treaty with PNG? And is that something that can be sold to the United States? Because, as I understand it, the Prime Minister sees it as one of his biggest achievements in office.
AYRES: Well, it's a treaty that is in Australia's national interest and in the national interests of Papua New Guinea. That's primarily what this is about.
CLENNELL: How so? How's it in our interest?
AYRES: Well, it secures defence cooperation which of course, self-evidently, is in the interests of Australia. It is a very large country to our immediate north with whom we have a deep and long-standing relationship with. For Papua New Guinea, of course, they have reached this agreement in their sovereign national interest, but it offers them all sorts of opportunities in defence cooperation, training, all of the arrangements that you can imagine. This is evolution of a long standing and deep and close relationship between Australia and Papua New Guinea.
CLENNELL: Speaking about China, some issues in terms of BHP and a freeze on iron ore shipments. What can you tell us about where that's at? Sources suggest to me that it can be negotiated and will likely or maybe hopefully blow over. Australia's economy is in trouble otherwise. Is that your understanding of where it's at?
AYRES: Well, my understanding of where it's at, Andrew, is that this is a commercial negotiation between BHP and the China single desk arrangements where they have moved to a more collective arrangement in terms of their purchasing of iron ore. It's a commercial negotiation and, you know, we want to see it resolved, we want to see it progress. We don't want to see any interruption to BHP's shipments to China, but it is essentially a commercial negotiation.
CLENNELL. So, other Australian companies who export iron ore to China aren't copping it, it's just BHP?
AYRES: Well, they will all be engaged in their own commercial negotiations and, you know, we want them to proceed unhindered. We want to see that.
CLENNELL: Is China opening up all the negotiations with every Australian company on this or is it just BHP?
AYRES: They are moving through discussions and negotiations with all of our iron ore exporters.
CLENNELL: And what's prompted this? Obviously, they just want to pay less.
AYRES: Well, it's a commercial negotiation, so that's the nature of it. They want to secure the best arrangement in their interests. BHP, Rio Tinto, all the other firms that export very significant exports for Australia. And this again, back to the Future Made in Australia project. We are working hard to secure investment in iron production in Australia. So, all about diversifying what it is that we trade with the world.
CLENNELL: That's never going to replace the value of these exports, is it?
AYRES: Well, it's all about securing our iron ore exports and our iron production facilities. It is about both of those key national objectives for the future. Not just value add, sure, but also secure in the iron ore industry.
CLENNELL: How concerned are you about this, that this could spread this issue with China negotiating with all the companies?
AYRES: Yeah, we're obviously watching with deep interest, but again, I have to emphasise it's a commercial negotiation between BHP and their partners in China.
CLENNELL Why are you emphasising that? Do you want to say this? You know the Australian government isn't at—
AYRES: because it's fundamentally a commercial, a commercial proposition, a commercial challenge. And we're very keen to see both parties to that negotiation resolve those issues quickly.
CLENNELL: So, there's more BHP can do?
AYRES: Well, I'm not engaged in those commercial negotiations. We don't get a daily update on the backwards and forwards of that negotiation. It's between those parties. We want to see it resolved. BHP's an important contributor to the Australian economy. I was at their Olympic Dam facility just a few days ago where they're investing big time in copper mining and copper processing in Australia. It's very good to see 8,000 people employed by BHP and their contractors in that copper production province in South Australia. It is a vital national asset and it's very important for the South Australian economy.
CLENNELL: Do you concede that energy bills are a massive problem for this country in terms of manufacturing and also for households?
AYRES: Energy is a crucial question for manufacturing, particularly manufacturing processes. I know again this sounds self-evident. Not all manufacturing processes are energy intensive. It's those energy intensive sections of the manufacturing sector that are exposed to electricity prices, exposed to gas prices. They are all getting on with the project of trying to secure low-cost gas arrangements. Many of them are investing, where their processes are electric, in renewable supply for themselves. All these companies are moving and engaged with the government and engaged with their partners about what can be done to secure energy for them. And of course, the government itself, the Albanese government, announced a review into gas supply and a review into the national electricity market over the course of the next few months. Of course it’s important for the future of Australian energy.
CLENNELL: What do you think could come out of that to get power bills down?
AYRES: Well, we're a cabinet-style government, you know, a proper government, where we've received a bunch of submissions. The Energy Minister is leading that process. But we're ambitious for the country here. This is an opportunity in terms of gas supply to make sure that we secure, as a major gas exporting country, the right amount of gas for domestic use and industrial gas use is absolutely fundamental. It will continue for quite some time. Many of these big firms use gas not just as a source of heat and energy, but as a feedstock for their processes. So, it's a chemical process that requires those gas molecules to produce cement or to produce explosives or to produce other products.
CLENNELL: Andrew Hastie spoke yesterday about the potential for a price target for Australian energy instead of an emissions target. What do you make of that?
AYRES: Well, it's an ongoing circular economy sort of process. The Liberals obsessed with themselves, obsessed with ambition, obsessed with internal conflict. We're just going to focus not on them, but on the actual issues that make a difference for Australia and Australians.
CLENNELL: What do you make of him resigning, though?
AYRES: Well, I don't pay much attention to it, to be honest. There's a sort of full flowing drama every day of the week. They appear to be losing Ministers at the rate of one a month. They will continue to obsess over their own internals. You know, they just got a very clear message from the electorate earlier this year. They are running exactly the same politics, moving in exactly the same extreme way, importing ideologies from overseas and trying to sort of regurgitate them in Australia. They can continue doing that for as long as they like. We will not deviate from our focus. What is in the Australian national interest, what's in the interest of Australian families, and delivering on the promises and commitments that we made in this election and in the election in 2022.
CLENNELL: I wanted to ask about Donald Trump's pronouncements on Palestine and the prospect of a looming peace deal. Are you hopeful of peace now or more hopeful? And do you believe that the statehood announcement had an impact or it's all been the US?
AYRES: Can I take those questions in turn, perhaps?
CLENNELL: Sure.
AYRES: Very good progress being made but there is a long way to go. We have all been watching this conflict from the moment that that atrocity happened on October 7, all the way through the last two years. It has been a devastating conflict for the peoples of that region and the Palestinian people. It's been horrifying what we've seen on our screens day after day. It is good to see some progress being made. And it's always been clear to the Albanese government that a settlement of these questions and a ceasefire would benefit greatly from American leadership and the United States playing a direct role. And that's what's happened here. It's too early, of course, to claim that these questions are resolved. There is a long way to go. But for all of us decent people around the world, you know, there is hope that a ceasefire could be achieved. Hostages being released. Let's wait to see if those two things actually happen. But that would be enormous, enormous benefit for the region, but also for the world.
CLENNELL: What impact, if any, did the statehood thing have?
AYRES: I think that Australia, playing the role that Australians would expect it to as a middle power, engaged with our partners around the world, particularly on the question of statehood. But you've seen over the whole two-year period, Australia playing a role for a ceasefire, working with partners on those questions, working with partners on questions like making sure that there's a strong international consensus for adhering to international law. And on this case, in terms of statehood, of course, is part of creating momentum towards a peaceful settlement. And that's the extent of the role that Australia, not as a central player in this, we're on the other side of the world, but as a respected middle power with a close relationship with our partners, regarded as a genuine player by our partners, we've played. We've played the role that Australians would expect us to play.
CLENNELL: Police are concerned about the Palestine Action Group protest next week being proposed for the forecourt of the Opera House. It's obviously around the October 7th anniversary as well. Do you share those concerns?
AYRES: As I understand it, this is a matter between the NSW Police, the NSW government and this protest launch. But as I understand it, the objections that they are raising are based upon safety of the people who would be engaged in this protest. I really want to see, you know, as a person who's been engaged in protest marches and all sorts of things over the course of my life, as a trade union official and as a young person engaged in political protest, the primary responsibility that you have when you're asking people to come to a protest is to attend to their safety. It's to attend to their safety. And so, I just urge that people who are engaged in the protest to engage seriously with the NSW Police. Understand this is a request that's been made of them, that you've got a right to protest in Australia. We want to see people do it safely and we want to see them do it in a respectful way that that isn't about bringing conflict here to Australia, but is about doing it safely and doing it respectfully.
CLENNELL: You don't think it's insensitive timing, though, around the October 7th anniversary?
AYRES: Well, I think that there's many people who would think that it was insensitive timing, but people have got a right to protest. You know, that's not in dispute here and it shouldn't be in dispute, but it can be done safely, and the NSW Police are asking for that to be moved to somewhere else, and that makes perfect sense to me.
CLENNELL: I am out of time, but I'm going to ask you briefly about the Triple Zero issue. Why was there a delay in putting in place the Triple Zero guardian? Is the system broken? Does the government accept any responsibility?
AYRES: Well, this is all about Optus’ failures here. The Triple Zero Custodian, I think, is the name of this position, Andrew. It was in May of last year that all of the processes had begun. As I understand it, that role has commenced. Not the legislation, but the function. The Minister's been working on those questions and the previous Minister's been working on those questions. That is all of the architecture that the government has committed to delivering. But in the end, this is Optus’ failure, and it's a pretty devastating failure for Australian families who just expect Triple Zero to deliver. When you dial it into your phone, you expect someone at the other end to pick it up and to help you.
CLENNELL: Tim Ayres, thanks so much for your time.
AYRES: Thanks, Andrew.
ENDS