JAYNIE SEAL, HOST: Joining me live is Assistant Trade Minister, Senator Tim Ayres. Senator, thank you so much for joining us.

SENATOR AYRES, ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR A FUTURE MADE IN AUSTRALIA AND TRADE: G’day Jaynie, it’s as cold as charity here on the New South Wales South Coast. I'm here in Pyree, dairy country, but it's very good to be here with you and your viewers.

HOST: Well, it's great to have you as always. So, we're hearing the lights are going out in Spain and Portugal, and we're hearing that the more transparency is needed in this nuclear debate. And we have been speaking on this show for a couple of years, in fact, and really trying to get the balance. I know there's politics involved. The general consensus that I'm getting, and I'm no expert, but speaking to the experts, is that the ban needs to be lifted in order for both sides of politics—if they accept that ban to be lifted—to really look at what's going on, regardless of the seven coal fired power plants, you can't do anything unless you lift the bans. Is that right?

AYRES: Well, I heard your report coming in about what's happened overseas. I mean, with the greatest respect to the so-called experts making pronouncements about this—experts, real ones, wait for the evidence to come in and assess that. It's the case that the nuclear power stations in Spain have been turned off and are actually running on diesel while these unexplained outages happen. They are working to grapple with it. I know people in Australia who are nuclear fanatics will grasp on to some development overseas to sort of try and make a political point in the dying days of the election. It's just not a real thing, Jaynie.

HOST: Well, Senator—

AYRES: And here in Australia; the electricity market operator, the debate about electricity, the information and the transparency that's provided by the agencies and the governments—I mean, it couldn't be any more transparent. Now every time there's an inconvenient fact for Peter Dutton's $600 billion nuclear plan, which will provide—

HOST: You know what, we’re running out of time—

AYRES: —4% of the energy requirements in Australia in the 2040s—

HOST: I’m going to have to interrupt you, like our debates where Barnaby Joyce talks over you, I'm going to have to interrupt, because we have to end this show exactly in three minutes. So Senator, I understand that there's the money—put all that aside, because we can debate the money for days. I get that. I spoke to a scientist in Norway a couple of days ago. They don't have nuclear energy. I asked him personally, and he said that he'd be very open to it. He wants a different type of nuclear, so it uses a different type of uranium, so it doesn't make nuclear weapons and so forth. So yes, things are happening overseas. But again, I'm not pro- or anti-nuclear, I'm just trying to present the facts here. But again, that whole idea of lifting of the ban—then you can work out what is actually going on.

AYRES: Well, none of the states and territories are proposing to lift the ban. John Howard legislated a ban on nuclear power some decades ago.

HOST: Yeah, but that’s the past—

AYRES: It's because it's the wrong solution for Australia. In countries overseas, where—

HOST: How do we know? How do we know?

AYRES: Well, we know because the evidence is clear. It's outrageously expensive—

HOST: Not according to experts—

AYRES: Look, you'd have to go further to find an expert—a real expert—than Norway, who believes that nuclear is the right answer for Australia. I mean, it's laughable. It's outrageously expensive. It would put enormous pressure on the federal budget. It would provide, under Peter Dutton's plan, less than 4% of Australia's electricity requirements, well into the 2040s—

HOST: What about solar?

AYRES: —what it will do is defer investment. Peter Dutton's plan requires Australia's electricity intensive manufacturing to close down. It'll put up prices. It'll deter investment. Investors will flee Australia. It is a bad plan—$600 billion: that means cuts to Medicare, cuts to services that rural and regional Australians rely upon. It's $600 billion—it doesn't grow on trees Jaynie.

HOST: These numbers apparently are not true. So again, I'm just getting rid of the numbers.

AYRES: Peter Dutton says they’re not true, that's why he's evading scrutiny. He runs away from press conferences—

HOST: All right, we’ve got 30 seconds. Your six-year term in the Senate is up with this election. How confident are you feeling?

AYRES: Well, I hope that the government gets returned. It's the right thing for Australia. We are in uncertain times that require a steady hand and the kind of management and leadership that puts the national interest first that Anthony Albanese has delivered and will provide in the future. This is a vital election for Australia, and what we need is Anthony Albanese, focus on cost of living, and building Australia's manufacturing future as well.

HOST: Good luck. It looks like you need maybe some heating there, whether it's solar, nuclear, or whatever it is, but you need to warm up. Thank you so much.

AYRES: Well, I'm wearing a good RM Williams Australian-made jumper. It’ll be warm enough.

HOST: Thank you.

ENDS.