LAURA JAYES, HOST: So let's go live to the Industry and Innovation Minister, Tim Ayres. Now, Tim, let's start off on where we just left off with Ross on AI. Eight thousand jobs going from Meta. Facebook is a massive company, worth billions of dollars. Do we need to, here in Australia – I know you're preparing for this, but what's the real answer here? – With the advent of AI as it is put more into our lives and integrated more into businesses, are we going to see thousands of job losses too?

SENATOR TIM AYRES, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND INNOVATION AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE: Well, there is churn and change around the world in the tech sector in particular, and it just underscores the case – the approach the Government's taken in the National AI Plan and the Expectations that we’ve released that, as Ross just said, are reflected in the $25 billion commitment that Microsoft made yesterday to investment in Australia. Investment in digital infrastructure. Yes, playing by the rules here, that is additional electricity investment accompanying digital infrastructure investment. But it’s also a commitment to training Australians, to building our research and development sector, to work together with government. We have seen a number of these arrangements unfold over the last few weeks, and it's the Australian Government making sure Australia is in the front of the queue, building as much investment as we can by trying to shape our technological, environment in Australia's interests rather than having it being shaped from offshore.

HOST: Tim, let me ask you about fuel security, the idea of more refineries in Australia or more storage. You would have heard part of my conversation with Ross about that as well. Where is your thinking? Where is your thinking on all of this?

AYRES: Well, as you saw last week, I announced on behalf of the Government the decision to bring forward – 

HOST: So sorry, Tim, I'm just going to interrupt you because we're having a bit of problems with your audio, so I might go to a quick break, to see if we can fix that up. And I just want clearer answers from you. Sorry, the team is there in Newcastle. We'll take a quick break and we'll be back on the other side. 

[Brief interruption]

HOST: We've got Tim Ayres back now. Let's go to him. He's now with a [indistinct]. Let's talk about the fuel security industry, refinery and storage. What's your thinking with all of this?

AYRES: Well, $1 billion we announced last week, that’s about the short term; about making sure that short-term loans, zero interest loans to make sure that firms can get through the current state of issues. But, of course, $5 billion that is there to back in long-term energy resilience measures for industry and that's right across the board. Energy resilience measures like thermal batteries for industry, one of those announced yesterday in the Hunter, but also right across the energy system.

HOST: But you're not talking about extra fuel storage or another fuel refinery out of this National Reconstruction Fund, is that right?

AYRES: Well, we'll engage with proposals as they come forward. I don't want to rule anything out. As Ross indicated earlier, there is Government support there, renegotiated by Chris Bowen, to extend those arrangements for our current two oil refineries. Remember, four out of the six closed down under the last Government. We've secured those oil refineries, petrol refineries, because they're in our national interest and our fuel security interest. Whether there's more proposals come forward, we'll work carefully with industry. 

We're working, for example, in the fertiliser sector. The investment that we made with the Queensland Government in the Mount Isa copper smelter there has, of course, secured the future of Australia's only remaining Phosphate Hill ammonia fertiliser production facility in the adjoining, very close facility. They are co-dependent. So, we're making investments where they're required in energy security and industrial resilience. That's what Future Made in Australia is about. We're dead serious about it. We've been advancing that work over the last four years and we're going to keep on with that job. 

HOST: All right. We need to level with people a little bit and I was asking specifically about petrol, and I appreciate the other parts of the answer as well, but you know a lot of people are going, well we only have two refineries left in Australia. Shouldn't we have more? We need more fuel storage, and you said you don't have any proposals but you don't want to rule anything out. But, if it's government funded, if you're using taxpayers' money, do you see either of these either as commercially viable? So, you know, we're hearing from Viva and Ross Greenwood a little earlier in the program saying, no they're not. It's really expensive to store fuel and another refinery isn't commercially viable. But do you see either of those things as necessary for national security reasons? Therefore would it be taxpayer funded?

AYRES: I mean, I'm not ruling out storage proposals or processing proposals that come forward. We are absolutely engaged in, for example, making sure we've got sustainable aviation fuel manufacturing capacity here in Australia, explicitly [with] funds directed towards that. So, I'm not ruling out what it is that we do in the long term. But right now it's about Export Finance Australia, the National Reconstruction Fund working urgently now to make sure that we cushion Australians from what is the biggest energy shock that the world has experienced. 

HOST: Well, let me ask you about these interest free loans up to $5 million for companies that are affected by this, which is all of them really, with the price shock, of loans with a turnover up to $100 million. You've had this scheme in place before. What was the uptake, when you've had it in place before?

AYRES: Well, the difference here is, this scheme is announced now and delivering through the banks. So, the Economic Resilience [Program] was a decision of Government around 12 months ago. It was an announcement in relation to the impact of the US tariffs on the global economy. We set out a timetable for delivering that. What we're doing is repurposing that and bringing it forward. So, it's announced and effective and open for business from last Monday. It's delivered to Australian firms through their existing banking relationships. Applications have been coming in, they've been processed. 

HOST: But the reason I ask is, is it right that when you announced this exact loan scheme around the tariffs that there was zero uptake? Just wondering why you would do it again when there was zero uptake a couple of months ago.

AYRES: Well, there wasn't any uptake because the timetable of introducing the scheme went into this year and it is clear to us the world has moved fast. The existing energy crisis is what we are focused on.

HOST: Sorry, what does that mean? At the time you’ve announced it – at the time you announced this, around the tariffs, what do you mean when you say no, it was pushed into this year? So, when you announced that, they weren't actually available? That's why there was no uptake?

AYRES: Well, we announced our intention to allocate $1 billion. A billion dollars was allocated to it. It's very clear that bringing that forward – 

HOST: But intention and actually having it in effect are two very different things. So, when you announced it, it's taken until now to actually have them available, is that what you're saying?

AYRES: It's open for business now and being delivered to businesses who are in the fuel supply chain or in the fertiliser supply chain or in plastics, for example. It's being delivered to them now. Firms are making applications. They are being processed faster because it's not the Government, you know, that does it. We have capability within the Government to deal with big projects, but these are smaller loans that we want to make available to businesses fast, and they're available right now.

HOST: All right. One final question. You've seen the tax debate. I know there are different views around the Cabinet table when it comes to the gas tax debate. What is your view on it?

AYRES: Well, we make decisions in a careful Cabinet way and we'll make decisions around our settings on the gas reservation that we announced at the end of last year in the Australian national interest. Reserving a portion of Australian gas for Australian industry and Australian households while making sure, as Ross said earlier, that Australia is a reliable energy partner for our region. And so, both of these objectives are important. And we've announced that gas reservation strategy at the end of last year. We're consulting with industry, working with Cabinet colleagues, and we'll have more to say on the details of the design of our approach as we indicated last year over the coming months.

HOST: So, no gas tax like David Pocock is calling for?

AYRES: Well, decisions that are made by Government will be made and announced in the normal way. My focus, I have to say, is on the gas reservation scheme that Chris Bowen and Madeleine King and I have the responsibility to advance on behalf of Australia. That's critical for Australian industry and it's critical that we deliver that in a careful Cabinet style way. That's the way that this Government operates and that's the way that we'll continue to operate.

HOST: Okay, two minutes. Thank you. Good to see you there in Newcastle.

AYRES: Thanks, Laura. Good on you. Thank you.