PETER STEFANOVIC, HOST: A shakedown is coming for the Prime Minister tonight over Labor’s economic policies as the Business Council of Australia hosts the PM for its annual get together. Joining us live is the Industry and Innovation Minister, Tim Ayres and Shadow Home Affairs Minister Jonno Duniam and gentlemen, good morning to you both. Tim, I'll start with you. So, if the BCA says one thing, that Australia can't tax and redistribute its way to higher productivity, and the Prime Minister says everything's sweet, two vastly different approaches, how does anything change?

SENATOR TIM AYRES, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND INNOVATION AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE: Well, my experience of those engagements with the Business Council of Australia, whether they're private engagements or dinners or public events or forums, they are very constructive engagements. The Prime Minister has, from the get go, been very clear. This is a government that operates in partnership with Australians, particularly with the business community, to get good outcomes for the country. And that's what we'll be doing. I'm going to the dinner tonight. I'm looking forward to it and I expect to have some very constructive and important discussions on the sidelines of that dinner.

HOST: What do you think, Jonno, of the BCA trying to lasso the PM. Is the Government and big business on the same page? Doesn't seem like they are.

SENATOR JONNO DUNIAM, SHADOW MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS AND IMMIGRATION: No. I don't know how you could possibly interpret that they are. I mean, the fact that they've had to reach for the megaphone to make this pitch to government is something I find rather alarming. I mean, we've just had a budget. Of course, it was all about taxing and redistributing wealth rather than actually finding ways to foster economic growth. That's the problem here and that is the point that BCA are making. Now, I do agree that the BCA do engage positively with Ministers like Tim, but the Government's policies are not pointing to a government that listens, that is acting in the interests of our business community, which, of course employ hundreds of thousands, millions of Australians.

HOST: So, I'm sure, Tim, that data centres, and this will be in your space, data centres will be an economic driver moving forward. It already is. So, how do you guarantee energy bills won't rise for the rest of us if those centres can only create their own renewable energy? You don't have exactly a good track record when it comes to predictions.

AYRES: Well, there's a couple of things in there, Peter. The first is that the Government has announced a decision to legislate AI standards, and one of the standards will go to electricity, and that is that firms must invest in more renewable energy than they consume. So, that is additionality for the electricity grid. So, the data centre investments are putting downward pressure on household and business energy bills.

HOST: Well, why not be more taking a look at nuclear rather than just renewables? I mean, that's the point.

AYRES: Well, because number one – renewables plus storage plus gas is the lowest cost way for us to modernise Australia's moribund electricity system that we inherited from the Morrison Government. It was a decade of almost zero investment in the electricity system and that is what is driving higher prices. Coal assets that are at the end of their life or past the end of their life with workforces that are doing their best to keep them going, but they are driving higher costs of their network. Second reason is gas turbines. For new gas turbines you have a delay of many, many, many years. Australia's competitive advantage right now is in wind and solar backed by storage and gas. That is one of the reasons why data centre investors, digital technology investors, are looking hard at Australia and why Australia is such an attractive destination for investment. And the AI standards are all about the Albanese Government insisting absolutely, we want to see those investments here in Australia, but we want them in the right place and we want them to serve the Australian national interest and the interest of Australia.

HOST: Let's get your response to that, Jonno, because I suspect data centres, I mean it'll be a key economic driver moving forward. It will affect all of us.

DUNIAM: Yeah, it's coming and we've got to embrace it, but we've got to get it right. And I think a lot of what Tim said is right. We do have a point of difference though on the approach to energy. I mean, the one thing we as an opposition are going to be focused on is when data centres and AI as an industry, I suppose you could say, or a sector of the economy is here. Australians have to at the very least be paying the same for their power or be better off, lower prices. Those basic sort of approaches, which I guess is where the Government's going with its approach on additionality, are things that are key for us. But we've got to get this right. It is something we want to work with government on to get absolutely right. You know, those points around them being in the right places and working in our interests are something we are absolutely hell bent on achieving with government. But I think the Government does have to work with industry to ensure that we don't send prices in the wrong direction, which is what's been happening over the last five years.

HOST: Given we've got nuclear subs coming. I mean, Jonno, could you get around data centres bringing their own small modular reactors?

DUNIAM: Well, at the very least we've got to lift the moratorium on nuclear energy. A civil industry in this country. That's something I think we need to have a conversation about as part of this. I mean, we make the point that these data centres and AI as an industry need energy. Now, nuclear is of course net zero. It does not produce emissions and so it is worth having the conversation and I hope the Government are open to that.

HOST: Can you be open to it, Tim?

AYRES: Well, nuclear energy is very, very, very expensive.

HOST: Well, what if those companies are paying?

AYRES: Well, nobody, not one of the large potential investors in Australia in this capability that, I mean, I agree with most of what Jonno just said. This is important for Australia from an economic perspective. It's important also from a strategic and a strategic capability perspective that we secure the right investments here in Australia under the right conditions. But nobody in the real world with real money is interested in investing in Australia with nuclear energy because it's a dumb idea.

HOST: What if they brought their own small modular reactors?

AYRES: It's only on very small corners of the Internet and our broadcast media and in the Liberal and National and One Nation parties that people are going on about nuclear power for data centres. Nobody in the real world with real money who wants to build one of these things in Australia is talking about nuclear power. It's an ideological fantasy and the net outcome of that would be higher household bills –

DUNIAM: Not true –

AYRES: For families and for business, not just a little bit, but a lot [higher].

HOST: Closing thought, Jonno.

DUNIAM: Look, honestly, as you put to Tim just then, Pete, if these companies brought their own small modular reactors it wouldn't actually cost consumers anything. Now, I think it's something we have to do –

AYRES: None of them want to Jonno, nobody is interested.

DUNIAM: Well, I think we have an approach here, but in order to do that, the Government have to lift their moratorium. Then we can have the conversation. That's all you have to do.

HOST: There is a few hoops.

AYRES: Look, if the Liberals and Nationals want to focus on nuclear on the way up to the next election, like it's a bad idea economically, it's a bad idea industrially, it is not Australia's competitive advantage that everybody knows that that will lead to higher household bills and it can't work for Australia.

HOST: Jonno, Tim, good to have you with us this morning. Appreciate it, though. Thank you so much.

AYRES: Good to see you, Jonno, thank you Peter.